Joyce (00:12) Welcome back to Hashtag Sisters In Law with Kimberly Atkins' store, Barb McQuade, and me, Joyce Vance. Jill will be back soon. So y'all, you have been buying so many of the brand new Sisters Resistance hoodies that were available in our merch shop that we have had to reorder them. You can order them right now and you might want to go ahead and get them, especially in advance of this next protest that's coming up. You can pre-order and as soon as they come back into stock, we'll send them your way. To go ahead and order the brand new Resistance hoodie and our bags, hats, and everything else in the merch shop, go to politicon.com slash merch. So this week, not a lot of fun and giggles out there. It is a serious week. It's a heavy week. We're here to break it down for you. And we'll start out by talking about Trump's use of the criminal justice system to achieve revenge on his ⁓ perceived enemies, something that has become more a feature than a bug of this administration. We'll talk about the latest on Trump's efforts to deploy troops to different states, National Guard troops, again, something that's fairly unprecedented. And we'll talk about Louisiana v. Calais, the gerrymandering case that the Supreme Court will hear for the second time next week. So lots to come. Before we get there, y'all, did you see that the Nobel Peace Prize was awarded today? Did you know that? It didn't go to Donald Trump. Did you know that? Barb (01:45) did. you know, I also read that it's based on conduct occurring in 2024. He wasn't even president in 2024. He's been lobbying for it. And he had no likeability whatsoever. Joyce (01:56) Details, details, Rules do not apply to the king. so seriously, y'all, if you got the call at two in the morning when a lot of these people seem to get the call, I guess that's Swedish time. If you got the call and were told that you were getting a Nobel, what would you be getting it for? Barb (02:17) you mean not just the Nobel Peace Prize, but science and- Joyce (02:20) You know, Prize, I mean, they give them for a lot of different things, right? Barb (02:23) to probably none of those really academic ones. It would have to be the Peace Prize, I suppose. Maybe if I could bring the fans of Michigan and Ohio State together to ⁓ unite against their rivalry, maybe I would get a Nobel Peace Prize for that. Joyce (02:41) But no hope for Bama, right? No hope there. Barb (02:44) No, no, no. could never possibly have peace with Alabama fans. Joyce (02:51) We can always hope. Kim, what's your nobel in? Kim (02:55) Well, I think it is in if they have a diplomacy category, it would be that because I and my stepchildren. Well, this didn't happen in twenty twenty four. It was a couple of years before, but we're reaping the benefits now. I and my stepchildren very much wanted a dog and my husband was a lot less ⁓ in that ⁓ in that camp, shall I say. But not only do we have Snickers, but he is Snickers' favorite person. And I think I did a little bit of work to ensure that that happens. Barb (03:33) Did you hang a pork chop around Greg's neck? That would happen. That would do it. Kim (03:39) Well, you know, I managed to find a dog who likes giving hugs and who likes to do active things, which goes right to Greg's heart. My last dog, Boogie, who I loved to death, was the laziest dog on earth. But Snickers likes to go hiking and do fun things, and Greg likes to do that too. So I think I found a really, really good dog for us. Joyce (03:58) found Well, Kim, I think we're going to have to be the co-award winners for animal related diplomacy because I was going to say, thought that's what mine would be for ⁓ the award for spectacularly integrating dogs and cats and chickens. My youngest son sent me a video of our backyard where the German shepherds had our big black Maine coon cat Tofu tomped over on his back. And the dogs are sort of like licking him and Tofu is obviously enjoying himself. He's sort of scratching his back on the cement. And they're just chickens walking around. At one point, a chicken walks over the cat. And I thought, you know, only in my backyard, it's world peace in the Vance household. Kim (04:44) I really don't know how you manage that menagerie. It really is something that deserves an award. Joyce (04:50) Look, seriously, I don't think it's anything I've done. They just all have sweet temperaments. Barb (04:55) Hahaha. Joyce (05:05) You know, ⁓ something that happens as you get older and maybe if you've had a couple of ⁓ babies is that your hair starts to thin out a little bit and it sheds more easily. This is yet another reason that I love the OS01 ⁓ peptide in OneSkin's OS01 ⁓ hair. Their products are really fabulous and this one is a scalp serum powered by their patented OS01 peptide. 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Please support our show and tell them we sent you. The link is in the show notes. Kim (08:51) Well, we're starting this week off with Trump's favorite weapon, the Department of Justice. This week began with former FBI Director James Comey being arraigned and wrapped with New York attorney Letitia James under indictment. This is not normal, but you know, it is the new normal for this administration. It's a dangerous weaponization of the very agency that's supposed to effectuate justice, not retribution. And it should worry every American because it's a broken guardrail that puts all of us at risk. So, Barb, let's start with the indictment of New York Attorney General Letitia James on Thursday. What do you make of the indictment itself and of who did and did not sign off on it? Could you imagine being a prosecutor in the Eastern District of Virginia right now? Barb (09:44) No, I really can't. ⁓ This is really like Jim Comey deja vu. It is so similar to the circumstances that we saw with his indictment. It's a different crime, of course. She's charged with mortgage fraud and making a false statement to a financial institution to obtain a loan to buy a second home in Virginia. They allege that she made false statements to obtain better terms of the loan. We haven't seen the evidence, so we can't really assess. Although I will say, Proving ⁓ fraud is a pretty steep uphill battle. You have to prove that the person intended to defraud the lender at the moment they signed the documents. And so that can be difficult to do. I think the real story here is that ⁓ the circumstances of this, you asked who signed it once again, Lindsay Halligan and only Lindsay Halligan. ⁓ Joyce, I don't know about you, but when I served as US attorney in the almost eight years I was there, I signed exactly zero indictments because we had line prosecutors. Zero. Yeah, who work the case, who are in the weeds, who know the details. Your name is on it, but they're the ones who sign it because they're the ones who are going into the grand jury room. And so I don't know if Lindsay Halligan was alone in the grand jury room again. Remember, she's an insurance lawyer who's been on the job for now, like a week and a half. Kim (11:02) Yeah, the reporting is that she was. She was by herself. Barb (11:05) Yeah, I mean, because nobody else wants to do this. Nobody else. I'm speculating here, but ethical obligations, losing your law license, violating the ⁓ policies of the Department of Justice to bring a case when you don't believe you have sufficient evidence to obtain a conviction. And remember, just because you can obtain an indictment based on probable cause isn't enough under ethical rules. You have to also believe that you've got enough evidence to obtain a sustained, conviction at trial. That means proof beyond a reasonable doubt to 12 out of 12 jurors. And so, you know, we know that Eric Siebert, Trump's appointed US attorney resigned over this. The head of the Norfolk ⁓ branch office ⁓ said she wouldn't sign off on this. And so it leaves it to just Lindsey Halligan alone, Trump's handpicked political ⁓ appointee here. ⁓ Joyce (12:01) I a pointy is so nice, I was going to jump in and say, hack. Barb (12:04) Yeah, I guess you're right. she was, you he's allowed appointments. We can talk about the validity of her appointment here, but she seems like somebody whose only qualification is her willingness to do his bidding. Kim (12:18) Yeah. And just in terms of the harm that is alleged here, ⁓ if even if all the facts as alleged are true, we are talking a savings to Letitia James of about 50 bucks a month in mortgage payments that amounts to something like 19,000 over five years or 16,000 over five. Somebody get a calculator and do that. But ⁓ and the bank. had no objection. Like it's not as if the bank is saying, hey, we were misled. No, the bank is fine. Letitia James is fine. The only people who are not fine is Donald Trump and this. I think that that's really interesting. Joyce (13:01) Yeah, I mean, can I just jump in and do my Joel Weinbanks imitation for one second? In a former life, I was for a while the Justice Department co-chair of the mortgage fraud subcommittee of President Obama's Financial Fraud Enforcement Task Force. So I've seen a little bit of mortgage fraud. And one thing I learned from working with our friends at Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac and some of the other HUD, some of the other involved agencies, Kim (13:06) is. Joyce (13:29) is this will come as a shock to everyone who's ever gotten a mortgage. Some of this documentation and the rules around it actually is not clear. Some of it is very vague. I saw someone describe it as squishy last night on the internet. And so to Barb's point about proving knowledge and to the point that you're making, Kim, I think it is, I'm not gonna say impossible. I think unless they have Letitia James, best friend and confidant, who is going to testify that James told her that she was 100 % intent on engaging in mortgage fraud, unless they have that evidence. With these documents, I mean, when you've got four sets of documents around a transaction, they're not going to ever line up perfectly. They are never going to prove intent here. Kim (14:14) And this is really important because I have seen some reporting, including ⁓ an editorial by a news organization that I once really respected, trying to equate what ⁓ General James did here with what Trump was alleged to do in her suit against Trump and the Trump Organization for their widespread fraud practices. And no, there is no equate, not even on any, the wildest scale is there. an equivalence here, you know, this is not everybody doing lawfare. So turn about a share. No, this is the weaponization of the DOJ. But Joyce, you know, this week we learned that Trump literally said what he meant to be the quiet part out loud. That truth social point where he declared ⁓ his political enemies, quote, guilty as hell and directed Pam Bondi to do something about it, AKA prosecute them. Well, according to a Wall Street Journal ⁓ report, that was a mistake. He meant for that to be a DM. But Joyce, talk about that and just how outrageous it is for a president to act this way and what that also means for other people in his crosshairs, like ⁓ Congresswoman Lamanica McIver or Senator Adam Schiff or John Bolton and more. Joyce (15:35) Yeah, you know, this Wall Street Journal reporting was great. I had even quipped in my newsletter, Civil Discourse, the night that that supposed post on Truth Social became public, that it sounded a lot more like a text message than it sounded like a social media post. For one thing, it started out, Pam, like he was telling his attorney general what to do. And then it was like, Pam, indict, you know. Jim and Tish and Adam, because I hate them. So go ahead and indict already. And if you won't do it, here's Lindsay. She really likes you. I mean, it was, you know, I'm obviously paraphrasing it. It was some really, really crazy stuff. So look, this is obviously inconsistent with our view of how a president as opposed to a dictator should conduct himself. But it also has real world consequences for defendants. It gives every defendant potential defenses that they would not otherwise have, like jury prejudice. And for people that were named in the Truth Social Post, ⁓ two of them are now indicted, Comey and James. The third, Senator Adam Schiff, is under investigation in the District of Maryland. And I think if I was him, I would be sleeping with my toothbrush packed. And this sort of presidential targeting may well push arguments about vindictive prosecution across the finish line. know, arguments that, as we have told y'all in past episodes, are almost never winners. But I think that we could see some of these cases get dismissed outright. And that's just case dismissed, game over, government loses, can't be refiled because of double jeopardy, because Donald Trump is a petty vindictive tyrant in this regard. Kim (17:18) Well, Barb, how about that? I too have been counting all the ways that these charges can backfire legally. I mean, from the post that we just talked about ⁓ being evidence of selected prosecution and tampering with a jury poll to the curious case of ⁓ US Attorney Hannigan's appointment, which even Ed Whalen, who we've talked about on this show, who is one of the most right-wing architects of ⁓ legal commentator and activist that we know. He was the one behind the idea of during the Kavanaugh hearings, if you recall, the idea that, no, you don't have to say that ⁓ Dr. Christine Blasey Ford was not assaulted. You just have to say, perhaps she just misremembered who assaulted her. And that ended up winning the day. That ended up being what Congress people hung their hat on. That's Ed Whelan. He is saying that he doesn't think that Hannigan was legitimately appointed here. talk about that, Barb, like all the landmines that these prosecutions ⁓ have that can blow up on the DOJ. Barb (18:29) Yeah, so I'll talk about that one first because I think this is a ⁓ very strong argument. And I think that if both Letitia James' lawyers and Jim Comey's lawyers make these arguments, each of them make these arguments, I think there is a very high likelihood that they can get their indictments dismissed. This is, remember, the same sort of rationale that Aileen Cannon used to dismiss the indictment against Donald Trump in the Mar-a-Lago case, that the special counsel was invalidly appointed, therefore, Any indictment that he produced was also invalid. And I think the same argument could play out against Lindsay Halligan. As most of us know, US attorneys, like other federal appointees, are appointed by the president and then confirmed by the Senate. That's an important check to make sure that the president doesn't just ⁓ install, as Joyce so eloquently put it, hacks that people have experience, that there are not concerning issues in their past and in their... history that they've got the requisite expertise. But there are some emergency provisions to allow a president to fill a vacancy when they can't go through that formal nomination and confirmation process just so that we can keep the trains running in the meantime. And there are two ways. One is called an interim US attorney. That is appointed by the attorney general for up to 120 days. At the expiration of the 120 days, Then ⁓ the court gets to appoint a successor if there has been no ⁓ US attorney appointed through that normal process of nomination and confirmation. In the Eastern District of Virginia, ⁓ Eric Siebert was appointed as the interim. His 120 days expired. And then the court appointed him again as the continuing ⁓ US attorney ⁓ until President Trump put in place someone that was nominated and confirmed. Well, he fires Eric Siebert and he puts in Lindsay Halligan. You don't get a redo on the 120 days and Ed Whalen says so. And there's also a memo written by the Department of Justice's Office of Legal Counsel, which does these sort of advisory opinions that says you don't get to restart the clock on the 120 days. You are stuck, you're done with your one person. And the author of that memo was none other than a very young Samuel Alito. Now, of course, on the US Supreme Court. So that's one path. There is one other path for appointing what's called an acting US attorney, again, intended to be until you can ⁓ permanently replace the person. This one has some more checks in who the person is. ⁓ The person must either have been serving in a senior level position within the agency for at least 90 days prior to the appointment. Lindsay Halligan was not. Or they must have been... presidentially appointed and Senate confirmed to some other position, which Lindsay Halligan had not. So there's three paths to being a U.S. attorney here, ⁓ other than the Senate confirmation, and she is 0 for 3 on all of them. So it appears to me that her appointment is invalid. And I think that a motion to point that out could also nullify the indictment. And then we've heard arguments about selective prosecution, which means ⁓ I am motivated not by a legitimate law enforcement purpose, but by some prohibited ⁓ factor like your race, your religion, or your politics. And one of the required factors for selective prosecution is to show that other people who were similarly situated but lacked the same characteristic were not charged for the same crime. I think with Jim Comey, it's going to be difficult because it's hard to find people who lied to Congress and then were not charged. But I think in the case of Letitia James, it might be easy because there has been reporting that a number of members of Trump's own cabinet had made some of these same kinds of either mistakes or on their face appear to be false claims. There's been reporting that the Treasury secretary, the labor secretary, the transportation secretary, the EPA administrator, and even the parents. of Bill Poulty, the head of the Federal Housing Finance Agency, who is the one who's made all these referrals, also claimed ⁓ homestead tax exemptions on two properties, which is reserved for one's primary residence. So I think that she might have ⁓ some basis for selective prosecution. Vindictive prosecution strikes me as a little more difficult here. That is something where you say, file these charges against me for exercising a legal right. Most often we see this when ⁓ somebody maybe ⁓ was successful on their appeal and then the case comes back and the government adds on additional charges. yeah, well I'll show you for, ⁓ I'm going to retaliate against you for exercising some legal right that you had, like the right to appeal or the right to challenge ⁓ some government action. It's a little trickier here because I don't know what the right that they were exercising was. I guess maybe just to do their jobs ⁓ under the law. So that might be a little more of a stretch, but I think that there are at least several landmines that await the government in the case ahead against both Comey and James. Kim (23:52) Yeah, I'm going to go out on the limb and say I can probably find examples of people who were similarly situated, including some of our cabinet members. Joyce (24:01) Bondi, Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Kim (24:04) may have lied to Congress in some both their confirmation hearings as well as some oversight hearings. The Secretary of Homeland Security comes to mind. Joyce, I want to bring this back home to how far adrift the DOJ has gone here. I mean, looking at both Comey's and James's indictments, could you imagine this when you were heading a USA's office? I mean, that just seems so wild to think that you have somebody who solo. is basically by all ⁓ observations, by all evidence, including the president's own words, carrying out his own vendetta, as opposed to letting the facts and the law guide them to their prosecutions and to make independent prosecutorial decisions. Joyce (24:50) Yeah, you know, for one thing, when there was a big public corruption case in my office, everybody in the unit wanted to be the lead attorney on it. You know, if I had like said, I'm going to go into the grand jury and indict this, people would have been like, no, you know, it's my case. It's my turn to have a big one. ⁓ You don't bring especially public corruption cases that the whole office isn't behind. You go into indictment review with that little indictment and everybody has a go at it. until it's as tight and as tough as it can be. And anyone and everyone in the office would be proud and happy to sign their name to it. So, you know, look, this is just not how U.S. Attorney's offices work. I mean, here, Halligan has to go into the grand jury both times alone because no one wants to work the case. And by the way, my hat is off to prosecutors in the Eastern District of Virginia's office. I certainly don't know this. I'm just speculating when I say that they agreed to all stand together and no one would go in with her because that meant that if she wanted to punish people who wouldn't participate, she would have to fire the entire office, which of course she could, you know, that would have meant cleaning out Alexandria, Richmond, Norfolk, and that wasn't going to happen. ⁓ I think, know, Kim, one of the most interesting comparisons, if you look at this indictment, is comparing it to Trump's two federal indictments. I think that's sort of revelatory about how unusual it is. Because if you'll remember, those two indictments were speaking indictments. They told a story. They had lots of detail. They were chock full of evidence about what the government was planning to present. And here we don't get any of that. In fact, in the second count, the false statements count, it just says, And she made multiple false statements. They never even get around to saying what the false statements were. So ⁓ I really want to underscore, in a way, we're sort of making light of it. It's a little bit like dancing on a grave. ⁓ It's not normal. It's not how the Justice Department works. It's not how justice is delivered in this country. It's not how presidents act. It's not how democracies work. We are perilously close. to a moment where we slip into autocracy. And I want to be careful when I say that because I think we are still a functioning democracy with courts that work most of the time and with Congress that is capable even when it is not willing and that has a viable opposition party. And we will have elections next year. But I think that we are in a moment that calls for all of us to be vigilant to make sure that we don't slip over the edge. Kim (27:33) Yeah, I would agree with that, although I'm worried about elections and we'll talk a little bit more about that. Joyce (27:37) Yeah, we have a topic for that. Kim (27:40) Yeah, we do. And Barb, I want to give you a chance to weigh in on just how not normal or new normal, I guess, the DOJ is broadly, but also, you know, this isn't just about weaponization of people against people Trump doesn't like. I worry even more so about the protection of people who Trump likes, who may be committing crimes. but who aren't gonna be held accountable for it. mean, where's that $50,000 in the CAVA bag? We don't even know where that money is. What about the January six rioters who I suspect have not only been pardoned, but may soon find their way with jobs either in ICE or elsewhere in the administration? Barb (28:26) Yeah, one of them is already working at the Justice Department in Eagle Ed Martin's weaponization working group. ⁓ think one of the things that is such a profound change that is so dangerous to the criminal justice system is when Donald Trump went into the great hall at the Justice Department, ⁓ this is a place that has had a history of great speeches about the importance of integrity. and justice and the rule of law. And he absolutely just defaced that place. He said, I am the nation's chief law enforcement officer, not the attorney general. And since the Watergate scandal, where President Nixon tried to interfere in the investigation into the break-in at the Democratic headquarters by telling the FBI to stand down because the CIA was looking into the matter. ⁓ We have erected a number of norms to keep the president out of the business of the Department of Justice. ⁓ There has been all kinds of norms and policies erected to protect independence of the Justice Department. Among them are barring communications between the White House and DOJ so that the president isn't influencing charging decisions based on politics. ⁓ Principles of federal prosecution that prohibit prosecutions to be considered on partisan political bases ⁓ and a policy to neither confirm nor deny even the existence of an investigation to avoid tainting the reputation of someone who is investigated. We have seen Trump blow holes through all of those norms. And as you say, he can use it as a weapon to go after his opponents and he can also use it as a shield to protect from prosecution people who are in his good graces or who curry his favor. I mean, think back to what we saw unfold with Eric Adams, where they said, you know, we'll dismiss this case against you as long as you are on board with Trump's immigration agenda. ⁓ All of those things are deeply disturbing. And, you know, I think what the president will say is, I can do this because I am the chief executive and we have a unitary executive and DOJ is all part of me. But I'm mindful of a book I've read called How Democracies Die. by two Harvard political scientists. And one of the things they talk about is the importance of forbearance in a democracy. is, ⁓ power should not be exercised just because someone can exercise power. There has to be respect for other institutions and respect for Congress, respect for courts, respect for universities and the free press and all these other democratic institutions. Because if you use the full force of your power against them, you will destroy civil society. And what we're seeing with Donald Trump is he doesn't care. It's about maximal power, not about preserving democratic norms. Kim (31:27) So I'm going to sneak in an additional, an extra listener question here, if you guys don't mind, ⁓ one that I've gotten in a couple of forms over the last week or so. And that is, could ⁓ an US attorney like ⁓ Halligan be disbarred for presenting false evidence or a politically motivated prosecution? What do you guys think? Joyce (31:55) You know, ⁓ I think it's premature to say right now, I certainly don't like what she's done. I don't admire it. I think that this case will head towards a point where ⁓ one of the defendants in these cases will ask and succeed in getting the judge to take a look at the transcript of what went on inside of the grand jury. And that could be very interesting. For instance, prosecutors do, know, defendants don't have a right to go into the grand jury. They don't cross examine witnesses. But prosecutors do have to present exculpatory evidence, evidence that tends to show that their client is not guilty. And so I think the problem that you have when you're cosplaying a prosecutor when you aren't one is that there are a lot of ethical pitfalls along the way for the unwary. And it could be that if a transcript is revealed and if some of the speculation that's been banded about is true, She could find herself like so many other lawyers who have affiliated themselves with Donald Trump, subject to these proceedings. know, Rudy Giuliani, disbarred, right? And he's just one among the many. Kim (33:01) Yeah, I think that's a good point because I know in a lot of times when people ask if Supreme Court justices could be disbarred and I say sure, but that will have nothing to do with their jobs. There's nothing in the Constitution that requires them to even be an attorney, let alone license in the state. And the same is true for ⁓ attorney general. when you're a prosecutor, that's different. You've got to be able to go in court. And in these cases, especially if you're the only one in the office willing to go into court, you do actually have to be licensed. practice so it's a different place but I agree with you I think we shall see on that issue. Joyce (33:45) Fall style is all about layering, and there's no better base layer than high-quality, comfortable shapewear. Whether it's a big fancy event or just getting cozy in a sweater and boots, the comfort and style of Honeylove's shapewear sets the standard. That's why we're really excited to tell you that today's episode is brought to you by Honeylove. They truly have redefined modern shapewear. Kim (34:10) So I gotta be honest when it comes to any sort of clothing, even when I know that it works well or is functional, it's gotta be pretty for me. Like it's gotta look nice. And Honey Love really has some really lovely designs that I really, really love. 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That's thrive cosmetics, C-A-U-S-E-M-E-T-I-C-S dot com slash sisters. The link is in our show notes. Well, this week brought National Guard troops to even more American cities. First, President Trump used a federal statute to activate members of the Oregon National Guard to Portland. That statute is Title 10 United States Code Section 12406. It's the same statute the president used to activate National Guard troops in Los Angeles. This summer it is not the Insurrection Act, and I think it's important to actually parse the statute. Joyce, can you tell us about that statute and what it says? It's too bad it doesn't have a catchy nickname. We have to say 10 ⁓ USC 12406. what's in that statute? Because that's the one that Trump's using. Joyce (40:34) So the fact that it doesn't have a catchy nickname actually tells you a lot about it. As you say, Barb, this is not the Insurrection Act. This is usually the enabling statute that presidents use to summon the troops when they're going to invoke the Insurrection Act. So it's sort of a procedural step. ⁓ 12406 sets out three preconditions, one of which has to exist before the president can ambulate the guard. The first one is the country is invaded by a foreign power or at risk of being invaded. Obviously not the case here. There is a rebellion or danger of a rebellion against the government of the United States. No matter what Donald Trump says, not the case here. And then there's the third one, the one that he's used more regularly, which says the president is unable with regular forces to execute the laws of the United States. So here, for instance, Trump has been going under that one in Oregon and in Illinois, claiming that ICE can't protect its own offices. I mean, I don't know if any of y'all have ever been to an ICE office. I have been rather frequently in my life. And the idea that it takes 40 National Guardsmen or 200 National Guardsmen to protect one of these offices is just really crazy. I'm waiting for somebody to make that point in court. But you know, the point to this statute is that if one of those conditions is met, then the president can federalize National Guard troops from any state ⁓ in any numbers that he thinks are necessary, and he can use them to help him execute the laws that he otherwise can't. Barb (42:13) Yeah, so we know in ⁓ the Los Angeles case, Judge Charles Breyer held a trial on this and ultimately found that ⁓ the president's ⁓ use of this statute was inappropriate. ⁓ We'll get to the appeal of that in a minute. But Kim, I want to talk with you about what happened in ⁓ Oregon. The state of Oregon and the city of Portland filed a legal challenge to Trump's use of this statute to activate the National Guard in Oregon. And then there was a very unusual series of district court proceedings in that case. First, there's one like on Saturday and another one on Sunday. Can you tell us what happened there? Kim (42:49) Yeah, it's all happened over the course of a weekend, which first a district court judge, ⁓ Judge Karen Emmergut, ⁓ issued a ruling on Saturday that temporarily blocked the deployment of the Oregon National Guard ⁓ in the city of Portland by saying essentially that the ⁓ state was likely to prevail on its challenge based on the criteria that Joyce just laid out, that there was by no means any sort of protest at play in Portland where the protesters were numbered in the dozens, not the hundreds or the thousands. Barb (43:32) outside of this. And did you see these pictures? They're wearing like chicken suits and all kinds of silly things. It's a handful of people. Joyce (43:40) Right? I mean, I love Portland. Kim (43:43) This is not an insurrection by any stretch of the imagination or lawlessness that ⁓ local and federally stationed police law enforcement cannot handle. Joyce (43:55) It was a contra dance. It was a contra dance in the streets. Kim (44:00) It was just so, ⁓ Judge Emmergut said, sorry, no. Well, then the Trump administration was like, all right, well, we'll just send the California National Guard that was in LA over to Portland. And she said, ⁓ not so fast. It had to issue an additional ⁓ preliminary injunction saying no, no. There is no more reason to send the California and the Trump administration is like, well, but your order only said Oregon. It's like, okay, don't, don't be slick because you're not. I can issue another order. And I just did. You can't send California in either. I mean, it was, it was the wildest weekend of orders and of an attempt by the administration to think they could cleverly undercut the first order by just sending national guards from a different state. Come on. Barb (44:52) Yeah, it reminded me of when they said, well, that was just an oral order. So we didn't think that counted since it wasn't in writing. my God. Are you kidding me? That was insane. Like I really have to come back and say, no, when I said there was no basis for National Guard, I meant National Guard from any, all 50 states. I guess I have to say that out loud. ⁓ Kim (45:12) 50 states DC any place else you could try to wrangle of no Barb (45:17) Yeah. you know, Judge Emmergut is no bleeding heart liberal. She was a U.S. attorney during the Bush administration. She was appointed to the bench by Donald Trump. Solid prosecutor and jurist. ⁓ And so she has struck that down. But then, ⁓ as I mentioned, Joyce, on Thursday, the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals ⁓ heard an appeal, an argument on the order that Judge Emmergut issued. And they kind of seem prepared to overturn her. I don't know. What was your read here? Joyce (45:52) Yeah, so I think the central part of Judge Emerget's ruling ⁓ is where she draws a line in the sand and says, administration is arguing that once Donald Trump declares that there's a qualifying emergency under the statute, no one can look over his shoulder and disagree. Courts can't review his decision. And she said, look, that's not the case. And in essence, she found that there was a reality test, sort of a smell test. where she could look at the evidence in front of her and she was capable of looking at it and saying, the administration is overstating what the evidence suggests. There's no rebellion. There's no situation on the ground that state and local law enforcement can't handle. And as a judge, I am able to look over the president's shoulder and not second guess, but judicially review his determination. to make sure it comports with the facts and it isn't just made up. And so that really ends up being a central part of this oral argument too. know, the panel ends up challenging Judge Emerget's conclusion that the protests were limited in scale and that there was no need for a military response. And so you never know, oral argument is not the opinion. You have to wait and see it in writing. But it looks like they may actually agree with her that there is, great deference is owed to a president. She says that and that's clearly correct. But I think that they may agree that there's a limited ability to review and they may just disagree with her as crazy as it is to anyone who's seeing the images coming out of Portland. know, Judge Emerget said she could use evidence of what was going on on the ground, the slide dancing and the characters to refute Trump's assertion that troops were needed. My take in oral argument was that two of the panel judges did not agree with her. Judge Nelson and Judge Bade both appeared to suggest that the present state of the protests was enough to justify what the Trump administration wanted to do. That's just sort of crazy sauce, to be honest. And it's very concerning. This case will definitely go to the Supreme Court. I think it will go this term. There's a case on a parallel track out of Illinois. Especially if those two cases are decided differently. That's then a split in the circuits that would, you know, to be honest, we would probably hear on the shadow docket first, which is sort of crazy when you think about it. Kim (48:26) Well, Joyce, you know what the most overturned circuit by the Supreme Court is. That would be the night. Joyce (48:32) It was the ninth until Donald Trump reformed it during his first administration. The ninth used to be a crazy liberal circuit. Like in my circuit, the 11th circuit, something that we used to love to do was have out of town lawyers come in and they would cite the ninth circuit and you would just look at a panel of 11th circuit judges during oral argument and you'd say, Judge, that's a case from the ninth circuit. And the judge would wisely shake his or her head as though to say nothing else. But you know, that's different now. It's become a very conservative circuit. I will be interested to see if that changes. I think that's a great observation. That is like Kim doing inside baseball appellate law. Barb (49:12) just want to know Joyce if in all your years in arguing before appellate courts you ever responded to an opposing argument by saying that's just crazy sauce. You know, that's like a show stopper. That's like drop to life. Joyce (49:26) I I ever said that. will say the guy who's the appellate chief in my old office now, he's one of the funniest people that I have ever known in my whole life. Deeply conservative. ⁓ I'm sorry for giving you up, Michael. Very, very religious. Somehow at one point during oral argument found himself saying to the judges, well, you know, if ever I were to smoke marijuana, sort of to illustrate an argument. And then just because he's the most wonderful human being and best advocate I've ever heard, he turned it into a joke, got the entire panel laughing with him. He says at him, but they were laughing with him. And he ended up winning a case that we really weren't due to win. I think humor is a wonderful thing sometimes. Kim (50:07) Good advocacy. Barb (50:08) ⁓ I agree with you that this is destined for the Supreme Court. And I also believe that this Supreme Court is a very favorable view of the unitary executive theory, right? That maximal deference to presidential power. But they are also textualists. And Joyce, you began by describing the text of this statute, this statute in need of a clever name, 10 USC, Section 12406. And what it says is, whenever ... the president is unable with the regular forces to execute the laws of the United States. What it does not say, unlike some other statutes, it doesn't say the president finds that he is unable. Joyce (50:50) The Indisrection Act, right? Which is very different. Barb (50:53) Yeah, and so it says that he is. And that suggests to me that a judge may second guess and say, no, the president is able to do it here. It's not deferring to a presidential finding. It is deferring to the reality of the situation, whether the president is or is not able to. Imagine, they love to use hypotheticals where you sort of stretch the facts. Imagine they come to, I don't know, what's that place, the villages in Florida, and everybody is just playing golf and. wearing their little red caps and not doing anything. And the president says, I find that we are unable to use regular forces here to execute the laws of the United States. And there's just zero evidence. There's no protest. There's nothing going on. Couldn't a judge there say, it's ridiculous. The president is able to execute the laws of the United States. There's zero protest. And so I think that this is where ⁓ unitary executive meets textualism in what could be a really interesting. Interesting test. Joyce (51:52) Yeah, well, good luck convincing Sam Alito and Clarence Thomas and Neil Gorsuch that ⁓ there's anything other than results-oriented judging in this area. I mean, have about given up hope for the three. I hope that there are a couple of other votes for sense and democracy. Barb (52:10) Let me just wrap up with you Kim, one last thing, your thoughts about, we're seeing this again in Chicago, ⁓ Trump activating the National Guard there, that too was met with a legal challenge. Can you tell us about that one and where you think that one's at? Kim (52:23) Yeah, so similarly ⁓ that deployment has been put on hold temporarily for 14 days at least by a US district judge in Illinois, April Perry. But to get to your point, Barb, she made a point in her ruling in noting that ⁓ she pointed to the quote, growing body of evidence, end quote, that seemed to suggest that the Department of Homeland Security was putting forth a set of unreliable facts to support the notion that the National Guard was necessary to go into Chicago to quell anything that looks like a rebellion or the inability of law enforcement there to do their job. So I think ⁓ she was honing in on this precise textual point that you brought up that I think could bring it, ⁓ really help clarify it if, as Joy said, there is a split between the decision in the, what is that, the Sixth that Illinois is in ⁓ versus the Ninth Circuit ⁓ where Portland is. So I think that that was a smart way to decide this and smart rationale because ⁓ Judge Perry clearly seems to hone in on exactly what you were saying, Barb (53:24) 7. Yeah, and I think at some point, the cumulative effect of really there's a situation in all these cities where the president is unable to simultaneously. he's the unluckiest president in the history of the world. He's got everywhere. Kim (54:01) And yet, you know when he did not call in the national? January 6, 2021. Barb (54:04) on Bah, that was nothing. Well, we here at Sisters-in-Law love cats, even if some of us don't own any, which is why we let all of our cat-owning friends and family know about Smalls. After all, the cat food most people rely on has questionable ingredients. That's why we're so glad this podcast is sponsored by Smalls, especially because for a limited time, you can get 60 % off your first order, plus free shipping when you head to Smalls.com slash Sisters. 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Joyce (55:46) I swear to God, my daughter's cat looked at me today and asked, mom, why no lobster salad for lunch? It's bad around here. I got to get more Smalls. We had it. They loved it so much. They ate it all and we've run out. I need to restock. But look, don't just listen to us. Smalls customer Elizabeth C. expressed how her cat was always so-so with her usual food, but is very enthusiastic about Smalls. Her breath is much better and let's just say that the litter stays fresher too. It even has a great story. Smalls was started back in 2017 by a couple of guys home cooking cat food in small batches for their friends. Sounds a lot like my house. A few short years later, they've served millions of meals to cats across the USA. And here's the best part, Smalls works with the humane world for animals, donating over a million dollars worth of food through them to help cats. You can even donate at checkout, whether you donate $5 for philiantic medications or $7 for vaccines. Barb (56:51) Smalls has other cat favorites too, like amazing treats and snacks for a full feline feast. You can even try it risk-free. So what are you waiting for? Give your cat the food they deserve. For a limited time, because you are a Sisters-in-Law listener, get 60 % off your first order, plus free shipping when you head to Smalls.com slash Sisters. One last time, that's 60 % off your first order, plus free shipping when you head to Smalls.com slash Sisters. The link is in our show notes. Joyce (57:32) Well, dear listeners, we wanted to give you a little bit of preparation for next Wednesday's oral argument before the United States Supreme Court in Louisiana versus Calais. It's the second time, but who's counting? This term's voting rights slash gerrymandering offering for the Supreme Court. And there is a little bit of ⁓ unusual behavior going on in this case. So Kim, can you explain why this case has come back for the second time, what the backstory is? And is this as unusual as I think it is? Kim (58:04) it's pretty unusual. ⁓ So this case originally came to the Supreme Court as a challenge to a redistricting plan that created two opportunity districts for Louisiana black voters. That's because there was a lawsuit brought by black voters that said that the fact that there are four congressional seats in the state, a third of voters in Louisiana are black. But yet there is only one of those four districts where there are enough black people to elect a candidate of their choice. And that is the standard under the Voting Rights Act. And they said, therefore, it violated the Voting Rights Act by what we call packing. You pack a certain group of people into one district, and that can be violative of the ⁓ Voting Rights Act if it has the effect of robbing them of their ability to choose ⁓ candidates of their choice. So after another challenge in Alabama went to the Supreme Court, and the Supreme Court actually ruled in favor of the challengers in that case, Louisiana implemented a different voting map, which created two opportunity districts ⁓ in which black voters could be deemed to have enough political power. doesn't mean they guarantee a candidate of their choice, but just that they have the opportunity to elect it. Well, then after that, a group of so-called, they identified themselves as non-African Americans, brought suit ⁓ against the state saying, no, this new map violates the Voting Rights Act because you're considering race. And considering race in creating a redistricting map is illegal under the Voting Rights Act. And you're thinking, wait, what? Isn't the Voting Rights Act meant to keep ⁓ people from being disenfranchised because of their race? Well, you would be right. But they're trying to put a new spin on it. And so the Supreme Court heard that case last term. We were waiting for a result. And instead of getting a decision, the Supreme Court put forward, moved this case into the next term to be re-argued with a new question. Joyce (1:00:17) Yeah, okay. So not all that normal. Good to know. Keep that in mind Wednesday morning. Barb, Kim mentioned that there's a specific new issue that the court wants to hear about. Can you talk about the issue and what it portends for the case? Barb (1:00:30) And I think it's not good. So the original question focused narrowly on the map itself, whether the lower court was correct when it concluded that this second majority black district was an unconstitutional racial gerrymander. So that was a pretty narrow question. This time, they issued instructions to the parties to file briefs addressing this new question of whether the state's intentional creation of a second majority minority district violates either the 14th Amendment, which is about equal protection, or the 15th Amendment, which prohibits people from denying or restricting voting rights based on race. I think the fact that it is much broader this time around ⁓ gives them, ⁓ I think, the likelihood that they're going to ⁓ create some really serious significant ⁓ mischief for the rest of the country. I think this case is going to be not just about this narrow little map, but about whether whenever a state redistricts to create these majority minority districts to give voting power to ⁓ minority groups, that that is a violation of the 14th or 15th amendment or both. Joyce (1:01:49) So, Kim, do you agree with Barb? I mean, you mentioned the Alabama case a minute ago. Do you think that there's any chance that the court might create a second majority minority district here? They've got the most unattractive group of plaintiffs I've ever seen in a voting rights case, right? This group of snarky white voters saying, what about us? ⁓ Is there any hope in this one or is this the death knell for section two of the Voting Rights Act? Kim (1:02:15) am not holding out much hope, unfortunately, it's because initially, as you pointed out, there was the case in Alabama, which we did discuss at the time, and it seems so long ago. But it was with that case that was very similar, a challenge to the maps there that were found to have been illegally gerrymandered to pack black voters ⁓ into a district. ⁓ And it went before the Supreme Court. And I think most of us were concerned that the Supreme Court would use that opportunity to strike down section two of the Voting Rights Act or basically null all but nullify it. And so section two allows private plaintiffs to bring suit to enforce the Voting Rights Act when they claim that it violates the terms because it does things like pack black voters in a district or ⁓ disperse them so widely that they can't ⁓ also cannot ⁓ elect a candidate of their choice and that it has the effect. It's basically like a desperate impact claim that it has the effect of disenfranchising black voters. ⁓ And that's important because the Voting Rights Act no longer has an effective tool that allows the Justice Department to come in beforehand to prevent such ⁓ maps from going into place or other voting laws going into place before it is pre-cleared by the Justice Department. That was knocked out back in 2013 by a different Supreme Court. ⁓ So the fact that instead of nullifying section two, the Supreme Court actually applied it and found that Alabama violated it was like, wow, okay, we still have this tool that is really important in protecting voting rights. And so that is why Louisiana and several other states said, all right, we better, you know what, we need to go ahead and follow the Voting Rights Act. And that's what Louisiana was trying to do with the creation of the second black district. But now that we have this new challenge, instead of sort of coming in neutral, the way Louisiana did the first time, they were basically saying, look, we're doomed if we don't and we're doomed if we do, Supreme Court fix it. Like we tried to apply, we tried to adhere to the Voting Rights Act. Now they're saying that it's unconstitutional. Now Louisiana is on the side of the non-African Americans and they're saying, no, we want to strike down this map. And so is the Justice Department. Everybody now is backing up and saying, no, this is unconstitutional. You can't do this. You can never consider race. Well, we have the Chief Justice, John Roberts, in ⁓ the Shelby County ruling and the affirmative action ruling and wherever he can, seems to have this idea that, the only way that you can stop discriminating against race is to stop discriminating against race and pretending like we live in a colorblind society. and just knocking out civil rights rules left, right and sideways. And I think unfortunately this will be the latest and it's devastating because if red states start taking a cue from this, they've already started in trying to gerrymander their way into basically into autocracy, like into really stripping people of their voting rights. This is a government that by definition is of the people and allowing gerrymanders that are based on, we already get the ones that are based on partisan reasons, which as we've often said, it has strong racial undertones underneath those. The Supreme Court has already said they can't touch that in another decision. And to now basically say the Voting Rights Act doesn't matter. and we will see red states start cherry-mandering like crazy, that can add just a double-digit number of new House seats on the Republican side and just skew the electorate in a way that doesn't resemble or represent or reflect the electorate at all in the way that the House seats are supposed to. That will be devastating for DeMau. Joyce (1:06:09) Yeah. So Fair Fight, that's Stacey Abrams' pro-voting organization in Georgia, actually is out with new data today talking about just how many seats this could cost Democrats. And I mean, we're not talking two or three. We're talking like 20, 30, maybe even more, ⁓ which I think is super frightening. Look, just so everybody understands, and I hope y'all will. I mean, get people are busy, but if you have the opportunity next Wednesday, go to the Supreme Court's website. And listen and depart all of this oral argument. This may be the most important case that the court hears all term if you believe that voting matters. know, Barb, there's a better path forward on gerrymandering. know Michigan is one of a handful of states that's doing it better. Give us some hope to close out the show. Barb (1:06:58) But there is a great way to do this. I think we have seen so many legislatures exercising their power just to try to create even more power within the states by doing all this gerrymandering. in Michigan and other states, we have created a ⁓ bipartisan, independent ⁓ redistricting commission and it's formed by citizens. There are some people who identify as Democrats, some who identify as Republicans and others. who identify as independents. And they come together after the decennial census, they look at the data and they draw the lines. And they've got some of the things that the court has said you should look at. If you can preserve a county line, you should do that. They should be contiguous. They should have, ⁓ you should keep together groups of people. ⁓ They should be of equal size. And as a result, ⁓ have, know, Districting in Michigan, that is no longer got a thumb on the scale based on partisan politics, favoring one party over another. And the first time these new maps were used a few years ago resulted in the first election in Michigan in 40 years that delivered the House and the Senate and all of the major ⁓ executive branch positions to Democrats. ⁓ and then it's- Joyce (1:08:22) Sounds unconstitutional to me, at least if I'm a Supreme Court Justice. ⁓ Barb (1:08:26) ⁓ And then most recently, we saw Republicans take the state legislature. So it is based on the will of the people. Joyce (1:08:36) as it should be. Barb (1:08:46) When you love seafood, you deserve the best. At the grocery store, you never know where it came from or what it might have in it. That's why you need a provider you can trust. For us, that means Wild Alaskan. We always recommend them, and it's wonderful to know our friends, family, and I are getting the best. And the taste is incredible, too. Kim (1:09:06) I say, I am still living off the goodwill in my household for having made ⁓ salmon fried rice with wild Alaskan salmon. was so good, but it's also easy and pretty foolproof because the salmon is so high quality that, you know, normally I would be weirded out about, you know, stir frying essentially seafood because it can get dry and all growth. It was delicious. That's not hard to believe because everything from wild Alaskan is 100 % wild caught and never farmed. This means there are no antibiotics, GMOs or additives in their catch. Just clean real fish that support healthy oceans and fishing communities. So don't you settle for less. We won't anymore. Go with fish that are nutrient rich and full of flavor. With wild Alaskan, that's a given. Their fish is frozen right off the boat. to lock in taste, texture, and nutrients like omega-3s. And like us, you'll love that everything from Wild Alaskan is sustainably sourced and wild caught from Alaska, with every order supporting sustainable harvesting practices. Plus, becoming a member means your deliveries are flexible and at your own pace, you'll get chefs' tips from the pros, but you really won't need them because they're just so delicious that it's really hard to mess them up. It's an endless smorgasbord of truly feel-good seafood. I love the Pacific halibut for a tasty treat that's low in fat, high in protein, and rich in omega-3s, and the halibut makes for really great fish tacos. That's what I did. But they have so many other amazing options that you can't go wrong. Joyce (1:10:52) Okay y'all dinner is at Kim's house this week. If you're not completely satisfied with your first box, Wild Alaskan Company will give you a full refund. No questions asked, no risk, just high quality seafood. Not all fish are the same. Get seafood you can trust. Go to wildalaskan.com slash sisters for $35 off your first box of premium wild caught seafood. Barb (1:10:55) Sounds good to me. Joyce (1:11:19) That's WildAlaskan.com slash sisters for $35 off your first order. So here's a big thanks to Wild Alaskan Company for sponsoring this episode and our family dinners. The link is in our show notes. Well, now it's time for our favorite part of the show where we answer our listeners questions. And listen, if y'all hear any background noise, we are joined by Kim's dog Snickers for this segment. ⁓ Looking absolutely adorable giving her mommy kisses while we're answering. We had some really great questions this week and it's always a challenge to pick the three that we'll answer, but we appreciate your questions. I hope that if you have a question for us, you'll email them to us at sistersinlawatpoliticon.com. or you can tag us on social media using the hashtag sistersinlaw. If we don't get to your question during the show, keep an eye on our feeds during the week where we try to answer as many of them as possible. But I know that y'all have a lot of questions right now and I wanna encourage you to keep sending them in. ⁓ Kim, we'll start with you. We have a question from Richard. He says, this is a great question. He says, can you please enlighten us about the meaning of plenary authority? and how it plays into the Trump administration's overall scheme for an authoritarian government. And of course, I'm sure no one missed this, but this is sort of Stephen Miller's glitch earlier this week where he's asked a question, uses the word plenary, and then shuts down. What's that all about, Kim? Kim (1:12:57) Yes, so I believe you are absolutely right. There was an appearance by Stephen Miller on CNN and he was actually talking about the president's authority to deploy national guardsmen. Section 10 of the US code gave the president plenary power. And then as you mentioned, Joyce, he seemed to stop talking. ⁓ think the CNN anchor thought there was a technical problem and they went to break and he came back and he sort of backed off of that. But that would be ⁓ just a gobsmacking statement, but also a very erroneous one. Plenary power means complete power over a particular area without any limitations. As we've discussed, the president does not have plenary power over deploying the National Guard. There is a lot of deference, but there are limitations. It has to be to repel an invasion, suppress an insurrection, or when ⁓ normal forces are not sufficient. to control some sort of threat to federal property. And as judges have said, that is not the case. But what worries me about that approach and the fact that Stephen Miller said that in the first place is that it plays into this ⁓ strong unitary executive theory on steroids position that I think some in the administration have that the president has. nearly unbounded power. And that would not be a democracy, ladies and gentlemen. That would be a dictatorship. And that is precisely what the Constitution prohibits. So the more that they speak about this out loud and the more willing that they are and the more willing that the president, for example, is to call out, whether privately or publicly, to Pam, that she should weaponize the DOJ. And all of these things are really painting a troubling picture, in my opinion, of what is happening inside and around the White House. And it is something that I think, ⁓ Richard, you are smart to be ⁓ asking questions about, and it's something that all Americans should be paying very close attention Joyce (1:15:03) Yeah, it really is a great question. And I hope that y'all will continue to ask us questions. There's so much happening right now. We really are in the deluge stage of the Trump 2.0 administration. I hope that you'll help us focus on these sort of little moments that happen and then sometimes get forgotten far too quickly. So a great question. We have another one from Juliet and she asks, how can citizens legally stop the unconstitutional behavior? if the other branches of government won't? You know, this is a, it's a profound question. I mean, I think it's the question for the moment. And the answer is our right to vote, which we need to insist on vigorously and be vigilant about protecting. A big part of that is the courts, which have made inroads into the right to vote. But you know, we still hold 50 state elections. States have a lot of control over how each election is run. Citizens in your state will, by the way, be in charge of your election. And you can volunteer. You can sign up to participate in that. You can be a poll watcher. But most importantly, you can get prepared to vote because one of the biggest fights in 2026 will be this issue that the Trump administration has been pushing full force. They've tried it as an executive order. The courts have blocked it. They tried to get a measure through Congress. It stalled because Americans, people like you and me to the point of your question, opposed it. And now there's a push in front of the EAC, the Election Assistant Commission, to require Americans to prove that they're citizens in order to register to vote. Well, that's pretty crazy because, of course, people who don't have reason or money to travel frequently don't have passports, especially as they get older. Students often don't carry proof of citizenship with them if they go out of state for school. And there are literally millions of Americans who voting groups estimate will be locked out of the process if Americans have to prove citizenship in order to register. So something that you can do is fight those measures, but also be pragmatic. And if you don't have proof of citizenship, if you don't have a passport, but have the ability to get one, go ahead and do it now out of an abundance of caution. Because at the end of the day, the way that we as citizens stop unconstitutional behavior from the other branches is by voting out the people who engage in that kind of behavior. That's why 2026 will be incredibly important. It will be an opportunity to reestablish guardrails. Our last question comes from Bob. Barb, this one is for you. This is yet another great question because it's part of our ongoing sort of criminal law 101. ⁓ where hashtag sisters in law teach all of y'all criminal law just like you're in law school. Barb, this is one straight off of a first year law school exam. The question is, what is an unindicted co-conspirator? Barb (1:18:05) that's great. You know, it's too bad Jill isn't here because she would tell you that Richard Nixon was an unindicted co-conspirator. An unindicted co-conspirator is a person who did conspire under the allegations of an indictment with the other members of the conspiracy, but for one reason or another is not going to be charged with a crime. Most often it's because that person is cooperating, but it could also be because that person is immune. So for example, if you were going to ⁓ list a president as a co-conspirator in a case. You might call him an unadited co-conspirator because the law recognizes that he is immune from prosecution under certain circumstances. ⁓ for example, Kim and I agreed to rob a bank, we could be ⁓ considered co-conspirators to that bank robbery. But Kim, just tipping you off, if the prosecutors came to me and asked me if I wanted to cooperate. brought me out. And be a snitch. I would snitch all day. I would sing like a canary. so in your indictment, you would say that you conspired with an unindicted co-conspirator. My name would not be in there to protect my identity while the case proceeds. Ultimately, when I took the stand and said it was all her idea, you would know my identity as the unindicted co-conspirator. Kim (1:19:21) Some sister-like- Joyce (1:19:22) You are. You know, it has been a long week, because I know Barb would never snitch you out, Kim. Barb (1:19:27) I'd sing all day. As a good friend of mine, my friend Stacey used to always say, don't do anything you don't want me to talk about because I can't do time. I will sing like a canary. Joyce (1:19:40) Well, that's all we have time for today. Thanks for listening to Hashtag Sisters-in-Law with Kimberly Atkins Storr, Barb McQuade, and me, Joyce Vance. Follow Hashtag Sisters-in-Law wherever you listen, and please give us a five-star review. It really helps others find the show. Show some love to this week's sponsors, One Skin, Honey Love, Thrive Cosmetics, Smalls, and Wild Alaskan. The links are in the show notes. You can tell from the ads how much we love these people. Please support them because they make the podcast possible. See you next week with another episode. Hashtag sisters in law. Barb (1:20:20) And who did Andy Dodd not sign? Kim (1:20:22) Sorry. That was a typo. And who did and did not. Barb (1:20:28) I who's Andy Dodd? I even Googled it. I even Googled it. There's like a performer named Andy Dodd. Like, what? Kim (1:20:35) my god, that's the best typo I've ever done, sorry. Joyce (1:20:38) I love that. That's great. We have to remember if ever anything goes wrong, Andy Dodd is responsible. Kim (1:20:45) I did that, didn't ⁓ Joyce (1:20:47) We cannot lose sight of this. Barb (1:20:51) Yeah, Andy Dodd did it. that's great.